Tonight I was digging through old notes when I found something I’d forgotten I even saved: a long online conversation I had years ago with a guy named Zack, one that caught my mind at a moment when my worldview was still forming. I don’t even remember what led up to it, but the moment I started reading, I could feel the voltage in it. Not just the argument itself, though it is a real clash, but the unmistakable presence of my younger mind on the page, alive and trying to make something true.

It starts in the middle of something already heated. Zack is offline for a while, and I’m firing messages into the dark like I’m trying to reach someone at the edge of a cliff. I’m arguing against a kind of rigid literalism that, in my view, makes people want to destroy the earth. Even now, that sentence hits me with its intensity. I can hear my certainty. I can also hear my fear—fear of what happens to human hearts when myth gets frozen into doctrine. I’m trying to say: there is truth in these stories, but not the kind you get by treating every symbol like a newspaper headline from God.

When Zack comes back, he is exactly what I remember so many people being in those days: protective, doctrinal, convinced that anything outside his map is deception. He sees good and evil as separate forces and believes the assignment is to choose good and fight evil until God arrives. He’s not really conversing. He’s guarding. I can feel the closed circuit of it. I can also feel his sincerity. He thinks he’s saving me.

And then the strange part: reading my own responses feels like watching a young preacher made out of myth, Jung, and fire. I’m talking about the tree of knowledge as the birth of duality. I’m talking about good and evil as two sides of one vibration, the up-and-down wave of a single force. I even catch myself writing, “getting mystical here,” like I’m half-apologizing for going too far into the invisible. But I don’t stop. I keep going. The rhythm is familiar: idea, idea, idea. Stacking concepts. Connecting traditions. Pulling threads from everywhere I had been reading and thinking.

Tori Amos appears, but really she’s just the match that lights the deeper conflict. Zack claims there’s an evil spirit in her music. I make a joke about ego, but I also admit I believe in positive and negative spirits. Then I do what I always do when I’m trying to translate something I feel in my bones: I start explaining the inner architecture. Shadow. Projection. The devil as the denied self. “Hold hands with sad.” Don’t deny any part of yourself, because denial doesn’t purify. It just drives things underground, where they return in other forms. Reading it now, I can hear how badly I wanted to defend what was human against a framework that treated whole parts of the soul as contamination.

There’s a moment in the conversation where I go full prophetic. I talk about Popes and emperors, about institutional church power, about how certain teachings, if truly embraced, would dissolve the ruling class’s grip. I type in all caps. “WE ARE NOT BLIND!” “WAKE UP.” It’s embarrassing in a charming way and also completely honest. I wasn’t performing. I meant it. I wasn’t just trying to win. I was trying to break something open.

Then comes the personal history, rising out of the argument like roots through pavement. I mention Pentecostal ministers in my family. I mention being dedicated to Jesus as a baby. I mention prophecies that I’d become a preacher. And I say something that still lands for me now: it is happening, just not how they imagined it. That line doesn’t read as sarcasm anymore. It reads as recognition.

The most intimate part is the healing story. I talk about two years of chronic pain, then praying, dedicating myself again, and being healed that night. Zack immediately tries to recast it as deception: the devil can come as a man of light. And I push back hard. I say the devil doesn’t feel like peace and love and comfort that overwhelms you. I call it BS. Reading that now, what stands out is not just the argument itself, but the force behind it. I was defending my right to trust what had happened inside my own body.

Yet even with all the friction, the conversation doesn’t end in cruelty. Zack says he loves me. I say I love him, I love the world, I wish people would love one another like Christ said they should. Then we say goodnight with little smiley faces. That detail gets me. Two people standing on different cliffs, calling across a valley, and still managing to bow before walking away.

Out of thousands of online exchanges, this is the one that survived. That suddenly didn’t feel random at all. It felt like instinct. Like some part of me knew this was worth keeping. This is what the mind looked like while it was becoming itself.

And without knowing it, I was also arguing my way into the life I’m living now.

The conversation itself is below. Reading it now feels like opening a time capsule.

Historical record

The following is a transcript of a conversation from February 8, 2011, retained as a record of perspectives expressed at the time. The theological, historical, and psychological claims within it are not presented as independently verified findings.

TRANSCRIPT
February 8, 2011
(…saved transcript starts mid-discussion…) [Jason] 8:28pm He was speaking for all people, not himself as a magic creature somehow different from us. that kind of thinking makes people WANT to destroy the earth although even knowing this, with non-literal interpretation, the truth can be found in it. I mean, don’t you know that there were even Popes who were evil, twisted men? the anti-christ is the modern fundamentalist church “sin” means “missing the mark” – not seeing that we are one with each other and with god everything we call “sin” is a result of missing the mark we’re mirrors, we see ourselves in others because we really are each other. I’m not believing a lie, Zack I don’t “believe” this that’s our minds, the division, the “tree of knowledge” myth addresses this conflict of mind seeing in pairs of opposites, duality good and evil, love and hate, light and dark good and evil are two sides of the same coin you can’t have one without the other. it doesn’t EXIST without the other they’re the same vibration the up and down wave of one vibration the word of god the vibration of the thought of god creation (getting mystical here) [Zack] 8:51pm yes you can you can have all good..you have to choose it and fight evil till god comes [Jason] 8:51pm you know.. I’ve tried sharing with people through my blog hoping tori people wouldn’t stay stuck on tori herself and maybe they’d explore deeper and I’ve had a lot of positive feedback, but mostly I don’t know… people are wild [Zack] 8:52pm that is because there is an evil spirt working in her music [Jason] 8:52pm in what, her ego? Ha! I don’t know about all that. but I admit, I believe in positive and negative spirits [Zack] 8:53pm which may be evil right now [Jason] 8:53pm I believe in forces of good and evil I believe that there is an awareness beyond our awareness that we can’t even comprehend and just like we can choose so can it I feel like there’s a conscious awareness but I also feel like we’re part of it and not just pawns we really are one with the planet we really did come out of the earth like apples come off an apple tree we really are the “fruit of the earth” we really are one with the spirit/life-force but we have these brains these thinking minds that do their own thing — so it seems but <—— when someone says they know all about it they know what it is they’ve named it they know exactly how to work with it they’re LYING they’re fooling people [Zack] 8:55pm tori proved to me that she is not stable when she came out with American Doll Posse. all those girls…tori was saying “my mind and spirit are split with good and evil” tori split [Jason] 8:56pm Tori has always said, “don’t deny any part of yourself, the good or bad” this is Jungian psychology when you deny the things you don’t like in yourself (like your anger, temper, whatever), you create the Shadow this is a fact of psychology whatever you deny in yourself becomes your shadow you’ll see it in other people and say you don’t like something about those people, but it’s really part of yourself this is “the shadow” it’s also “the devil” same thing it IS part of us so the therapy/healing is in seeing it and not denying it [Zack] 8:57pm i do not believe in tori i believe in god she needs healing [Jason] 8:58pm but “being its friend” you know, “hold hands with sad” because if you deny “sad,” it grows stronger in your shadow and comes out as hate, outbursts, etc [Zack] 8:58pm sad and anger and other feels that bring you down are not of god [Jason] 8:58pm anything we deny in ourselves we will project onto other people. This is the devil thinking he’s somehow “better” than god thinking he’s “separate” both myths of the fall — the fall of Satan and the fall of Man — are addressing the same psychological issue the delusion that we are separate of course it’s “of god” it’s impossible for anything to not be of god how can anything not be of god when the bible says god is the source, god is all that is? everything is “of god” satan is an aspect of god without satan, there is no god that is good they are one, these are all aspects of ourselves “devils and gods, they are you and I” is not an original Tori Amos idea, it’s an ancient spiritual truth [Zack] 9:02pm the devil is not us..he is the prince of this word and we are to over come him in the name of the lord [Jason] 9:03pm when the egyptians die, in their myth, they would eat the gods as they ascended into the afterlife, which represented the fact that the Gods were projections of their own inner psychological/spiritual processes this isn’t new, it’s a Truth Jesus said, “I and the father are one” these are teachings that, if truly embraced by the masses, leaves no ruling class in charge — an institutional church could NOT let these things be known and survive as a political power the Popes and emperors weren’t stupid! this isn’t new, it’s a Truth we weren’t given “the perfect religious teaching” by our political and spiritual leaders. these modern people are not infalliable, and their “printing press” didn’t automatically make it all “true” WE ARE NOT BLIND! your dogmas are not TRUTH your myths are not LITERAL there is a higher truth beyond Christianity, though the Christ teachings are VERY VALUABLE for humanity and there IS an immortal SPIRIT within ALL EXISTENCE. Don’t get caught up in WORDS and SYMBOLS and CULTURE. WAKE UP. ok, that’s all. [Zack] 9:06pm i give it to you jason…you have done a lot of pleading your case here for this lie… but it all just adds up to lies [Jason] 9:06pm I’m not taking this lightly. I’m not fooling around. There is no lie but the lie of literalism there is no lie but the lie that “life is not change” well, life IS change and holding onto a static image leads to destruction in the oral traditions, this wasn’t a problem the stories would change as people changed when writing came into the picture (no pun intended)… things got crazy and neuroses developed in humans serious neuroses, psychoses, etc [Zack] 9:08pm then let go of tori amos and any other evil thing that does not line up with the bible [Jason] 9:08pm I’m not holding on to her like you imply.. in my early days of being a “fan,” I happened to absorb everything I read. but that’s how I am with any subject. My focus has not been on Tori Amos for at least a decade and I’ve been studying psychology, religion, myth and mysticism for about 10 years now and I have 3 Pentecostal ministers in my family who I spent this past summer with, going to church at least 4 days a week for 6 months I’ve been in Baptist and Pentecostal churches since I was born was “dedicated to Jesus” as a baby and my mom was told by the preacher that I’d live to see the “end days”, which she took very literally prophecy by at least 3 preachers that I myself would become a preacher which seems to be happening, just not how they imagined it lol [Zack] 9:12pm well you may one day will when you wake up [Jason] 9:12pm I denied the spirit as a teenager and was blind then I did wake up and now here I am happily awake more awake than I’ve ever been alive in the spirit [Zack] 9:13pm You’re not fully awake… but one day you will see the light and be of the lord and preach [Jason] 9:13pm well tell me why would the spirit work when I proclaim my understanding of truth and ask god to heal me and he did it immediately after 2 years of chronic pain that got worse and worse [Zack] 9:13pm it’s not the lord’s spirt..it is the devil’s spirt.. he can come as a man of light to trick you [Jason] 9:14pm nah the devil doesn’t feel like peace and light and love and comfort that overwhelms you that’s BS [Zack] 9:14pm no he does not.. but he can fake it.. to bring you to him [Jason] 9:14pm so anyway, I prayed and prayed because I do believe in the spirit [Zack] 9:14pm that is how he works [Jason] 9:15pm this is not a trick of mind so I dedicated myself again like when I was a baby and I was healed that night, and haven’t had any pain or after-effects from whatever was going on with my back and legs for 2 yrs it was going on, and it ended in one night that’s the only healing story I have, but it’s the only time I sincerely asked for it. and it happened I’m also not moved to put anyone down or hurt anyone or take away from anyone, but to bring light. the devil would not move me to feel this way. [Zack] 9:17pm well see, god was showing that he loved you and is here… but you can’t believe this lie and think he will do that again [Jason] 9:17pm I don’t expect it again or think like that I’m not benny hinn lol (who is a proven fake) 100% of his “healing” miracle cases were proven to be temporary mind-over-body feelings of pain relief [Zack] 9:18pm i was told that i am the gate keeper of my family..and that the lord is going to do great things for me [Jason] 9:19pm good. but you don’t have to interpret that as being part of some sort of specific man-made literal interpretation of spiritual truth [Zack] 9:20pm I feel my way and you feel your way [Jason] 9:20pm Zack, there is “the spirit” and there is “rebirth” there are facts there IS the spirit/life there IS rebirth, we are reborn these are facts [Zack] 9:20pm in the lord yes [Jason] 9:20pm people have known this for a LONG TIME they use images, then later, words to express these things to express these truths that they learn through insight, which is “vision from the spirit” they teach people about it, people repeat the stories [Zack] 9:21pm well i love you jason even if we don’t see eye to eye..and i hope the lord will work on your heart [Jason] 9:21pm they are Isis, Osiris they are all these names but it’s one thing they’re all talking about “the spirit” and US [Zack] 9:22pm when we go to heaven with the lord we will all by a spirt of good no evil [Jason] 9:22pm the Jews borrowed HEAVILY from Sumerian culture and stories, the early Christians borrowed heavily from the Greeks, and their stories were borrowed from people before them Plato told the story of “the perfect condition (Eden), then the Fall, then banishment from paradise, then the redemption and return to heaven” he taught this as philosophy, and the early church was greatly influenced by this model, which is nowhere in the bible, but it’s what we’ve been handed down it’s Plato! and the “virgin birth,” concept — a common symbol for the beginning of a story about spiritual birth, around the world that’s just ONE of so many symbols that are used and re-used because they’re about a deeper truth and it’s GOOD it truly is the good news to share this deeper truth but then over time people lose the original meanings, the deeper insights, and even whole sections of the story get thrown out like, HELLO, the MOTHER the BRIDE ?!? that’s not a man meddling in spirit’s affairs? OBVIOUSLY so anyway I love this, I love you, I love the world and I wish people would love one another like the son of god said they should in the meantime, I have to get going as I’m sure you do, too we can continue sometime, though [Zack] 9:27pm sounds good to me [Jason] 9:27pm and I urge you to explore anything on my blog with an open mind [Zack] 9:27pm have a good night god bless [Jason] 9:27pm thanks, goodnight 🙂

— Jason Elijah